lunes, 17 de noviembre de 2008

Discutiendo sobre edad

Voy a hacerlo al revés, os dejo algunos de los comentarios y vosotros os imagináis lo que dice el artículo criticado... publicado en Nature, por cierto. Un ejercicio intelectual como otro cualquiera....

"They don't seem to consider that older professors have larger research groups, i.e. more underlings to actually write the papers. Perhaps a better photo to illustrate the story would be the aged professor in their office wielding a red pen over their students' manuscripts.

28 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Bob O'Hara Well, the older professors are also more established and have more connections, and therefore can participate in both small and large collaborative projects. No offence, but this survey only seems to prove an already obvious point.

28 Oct, 2008 Posted by: H Tse Usually the older scientists have many students as assistants.Without their help,older scientists can't produce many papers.But I agree to the view that it is better to keep researchers and let them work because they have very rich experience.

28 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Song Tianqi It is true that older scientists publish more research papers. It is the testimony of their continued research commitment over decades in their chosen field of research. More and more experienced in their own field of research their understanding and analysis of the facts will be more than new entrants to that area of research. Older scientists should be encouraged to do research by providing sufficient funds by the respective organizations in order to get good things out of their research contribution.

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Govindareddy Ponnaluru Yes I do agree with the above study. But we should understand one point; most of the older scientist will be famous in their respective fields. I agree that their papers are getting published in good journals and have good scientific values with more citation index. I am afraid, younger scientist may not get same treatment even for a better paper from the reviewers. Will you agree with me if I put the name ?paradigm shift factor? for the above discrepancy? Posted by: Biju

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Biju A R i think older scientist should tired,but it doesn't mean they will give up their work,and i think we should give the yongger scientists more chances ,because they always have more new ideas that are surprising.and i think the older scientist can help the yongger scientist

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: long The older scientists are actually those, who remain committed to research, and derive pleasure by working and publishing; among younger scientists there are also those, who do science for livelihood, and not for their love for science. The younger scientists form a heterogenous group, while older are only those, who can not live without working (most of them are perhaps wokoholics; they dont have to continue working due to pressure of job). Therefore, it is true that funds made available to older scientists (based on their productivity) will be profitably utilized. Pushpendra K. Gupta, India

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Pushpendra Gupta yes,it's true,they have more experience and they have less pressure. so they can do more what they like

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: shi yu My view about this as a young scientist is that established researchers tend to know each other, have a wider sphere of interaction and generally more respected in their fields as a function of longevity in service. My experience is that many reviewers tend to be too critical if a name is new in a field. Secondly, even funding bodies allocate more fundings to largely established groups which are usually run by older researchers while younger researchers with the brightest ideas usually have a really tough time to start off. For example, if you are not a PI in the UK, the research councils here may not fund you! I do not find this study to be scientifically balanced because they don't seemed to have addressed the issues that would have let to such differences.

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Ernest Chi Fru Can one rule out that the comparatively low publication record of the younger sicentists is due to the fact that some of them are not so well-performing while others are? The underperformers may not stay in science. Only the well-performing ones will survive and they will later form the group of well-publishing professors when they are in their 50s and 60s. I think such a study can only be valid if it traces back the publication record of many scientists who are now in their 50s and 60s. I am almost certain that a scientist who is publishing well today (in quantitative terms) has also published equally well in his 30s and 40s. In qualitative terms (and impact factor) the papers should improve with age because most (but not all) mistakes will have been made at a certain moment in life ;-).

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Claus Schwechheimer This news story is almost offensive. The system forces young scientists to remain working for older scientists. Such precarious situation results in the young scientist having to comply with unfair publication policies. These are not always explicit, but one does not want to risk a future position because of a poor reference from your previous boss. Very often, the head of group will simply proofread an article before submission, with most of the ideas and hard work coming from the young scientists. On my experience, the work of old scientists is generally much less innovative than that of the young scientists. Quite frankly, it is embarrasing that Nature highlights such a poor study. At the very least, the authors should have tried to introduce a correction to account for unfair publication policies, such as dividing publication outcome of an old scientist by the number of members in the group.

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: John Doe All of us think in the same way. How old are the researchers that published this papers. Compare versus post-docs, students, grants...

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Eugenio De la Mora I strongly agree with the comment made by Claus Schwechheimer who states that "a scientist who is publishing well today (in quantitative terms) has also published equally well in his 30s and 40s" This has certainly been true in my career. I think that scientists in their 50's and 60's have picked up a wealth of experiences by dint of just still being around! The advantages that older scientists can bring to an organization are many not least of which include helping to mentor the next generation of excellent scientists.

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Richard Horuk Two things. First, publishing more papers is quite different than doing good research. It is unfortunate that in our time the list of publications has become the measure of the productivity and research of a person and as result of it people use various unfair means to increase their list of publications. Like submitting the same paper to different journals with small modifications, or republishing their work in the same journal with small or no modifications, plagiarism and so on. Second, most journals consider papers for publications not only on the basis of the content of the papers but on the basis of the affiliation of the authors and their status in the research community. As a result of this papers submitted by senior people are easily considered for publications in comparison to junior or new people. The face of the scientific publications (and science also) may change drastically if the names of the authors are not disclosed to the referees until the final decision about the publication. I know this will increase the workload of publication agencies but this will help scientific publications to become more objective and of course it will be good for science in the long run. I also agree with the point that senior people have bigger groups (or they are a member of more groups) and as a result they get authorship of more publications irrespective to their actual contribution.

29 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Jayanti Prasad It would be interesting to know the position of their names in byline in the papers. I have an odd feeling that most would just have got their names in the third or fourth for obvious reasons!

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Arun K.Shanker How many of those "older" scientists have papers in their 50's-60's with their single name (without students or post-docs)? This would give some better answer to their creativity. Creativity is not just adding ones name to a long list of students or colleagues. Pity to see Nature reporting such a "study".

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Jean Louis Vigneresse This survey gives a confused/highly distorted picture about creativity of older scientist.Creativity is not just adding ones name to a long list of students or colleagues. Such practices by older scientist/outstanding scientists publishing papers in the larger groups of authors (groups of more than 3 authors) should be banned.It clearly reflects their mean mentality.Such the so called outstanding persons are suckers.Pity to see Nature reporting such a "study".Such acts are shameful and need to condemn.

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: D.P.S. RATHORE The comments pointed out instantly the fallacy of the argument. The fact is that there is enormous variation in the extent to which older scientists make contributions to the work themselves. But the invidious practice of guest authorship can actually start quite young. There is no easy way to correct for it without knowing much more than is apparent from the paper. At least it would be nice to see the results normalised for group size, though even that would clearly be imperfect. I guess that I'm lucky to work in an area where the mathematics, and the computer programs that are based on it, are crucial for the work, so it's possible to make contributions without being at the bench, even at 72.

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: David Colquhoun Others make the good point that in studies of this type one needs to take into account the number of authors and authorship position (placement within the list of authors). Amount of research funding is important as well. Suppose older, more-established researchers tend to get larger grants. Not only would they have more research personnel to generate ideas, conduct research and co-produce papers but also their team would have access to more and better equipment, materials and supplies. /// I once examined the correlation between amount of research funding available to medical researchers and their production of research papers. As is the case with the present study, I did not control for all relevant variables so my findings are not scientifically sound. Nevertheless, for what its worth, I found that productivity per grant dollar decreased as grant size increased. /// Intuitively I would guess that, when all variables are considered, age has little influence on one's ability to contribute to new knowledge.

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Michael Obrecht During earlier part of one?s career many factor influences his/her publication track record, besides intelligence, determination etc. During early part of one?s career, we do research mainly on some ongoing project where our work is designed and guided by senior faculties. Depending on supervisor?s scientific productivity, scientific ethics and publication track record, our own publication record is affected. If you work with a person and/or in a project that produced no publication after working there for some years, it does spoil your career and publication track record without much fault of yours. This is particularly true in current research system in USA where mentoring is almost absent (the fact accepted by NSF and NIH). Generally Postdocs and PhD students are exploited just to crank data as technicians. Very few labs/faculty allow a young postdocs or PhD students to grow and groom them as scientists. When that young person realizes the problem of the system and change him/her-self to stay in the system, s/he become a bit older with a less impressive publication track record. Secondly, Low salary, pathetic working condition (long working hours, less paid leave and other benefits) in many of the labs force many talented people not to join research in the first place (as in developed countries) and force many young scientists (young postdocs and PhD students) to seek a more rewarding career elsewhere, may be in industries where publication is not that important. It leaves only few dedicated people with initial success and/or strong determination to remain in academic research. This fact also influences such survey besides other facts mentioned in previous messages.

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: jayanta chatterjee I've just realized that all the talk of creativity in the article is about creativity in writing grant applications. Any questions?

30 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Shi Liu This is a phenomenon that can be compared to the food chain principle what we have studied in ecology. Here knowledge assimilated keeps compounding

31 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Muktikant Ray Of course they do! The system is pyramidal. Was money actually spent here?

31 Oct, 2008 Posted by: Fermin Sanchez de Medina I am 88 years old.I am happy that some of my younger colleagues(in their 40's and 60's) are kind enough to make me believe that my long experience might be useful and add my name in some of their papzrs! 1st Nov,2008 Georges Cohen

01 Nov, 2008 Posted by: Georges Cohen

Its already well known fact that professor's have large groups with international colloborations, so they publish more than the younger counterparts! The people who have done the survey have wasted time and public money!.

04 Nov, 2008 Posted by: Tejesvi Mysore

7 comentarios:

Roke Iñaki Oruezabal dijo...

Qué casualidad que en otro foro también tratan el tema de ciencia y edad...

Roke Iñaki Oruezabal dijo...

Algo que me envían, relacionado con el éxito de los jóvenes españoles y sus opiniones respecto al funcionariado y las más que duras posibilidades en España.
Algunas de las declaraciones de investigadores de éxito:
"Cuando eres un investigador habituado a malos contratos y sucesivas becas descubres que fuera de España hay muchas más opciones de investigar, y que, incluso, muchos centros luchan por tenerte o te proponen trabajar para ellos"
"Incluso, te puedes ver en el extranjero liderando un grupo, cuando en tu país no tendrías siquiera la opción de superar tu precariedad laboral"
"El concepto funcionarial y jerárquico corta muchas carreras en España. Hay gente que, cuando llega, pasa de liderar un grupo, de hacer cosas realmente valiosas que pueden cambiar la vida de la gente, a pelearse por ser el último profesor asociado a un catedrático que no siempre tiene muchas ganas de trabajar"

Anónimo dijo...

Hola Roke:

Recientemente, creo que en Nov 7, en Science se publico un articulo de opinion sobre una inciativa que se instauro en el NIH para la financiacion obligatoria de un procentaje de jovenes invetigadores (lease como jovenes a gente que empieza a trabajar independientemente con su grupo CON 42 AñOS de EDAD - que es la media hoy) ya que se habia visto que la mayoria del dinero iba a los investigadores maduros por las razones obvias que se ven en los comentarios. Se identifico el problema del fraticio intergeneracional que se estaba llevando a cabo y al que nuestros colegas "mayores" (lease aquellos con prestigio y puestos de liderazgo en las instituciones cientificas) estaban ignorando, porque al fin de cuentas todo el mundo tiene sus problemillas y se ha intentado poner una solucion desde arriba. El resultado ha sido mas financiacion para los jovenes no tan jovenes que por lo menos pueden respirar por cinco años mas en sus carreras cientificas. Despues pues eso, quien sabe.

Un saludo:

Reithor dijo...

El caciquismo es algo habitual, en ciencia y muchas otras áreas laborales.

El estudio en si, que no hace falta leerlo al ver lo que se comenta, queda bien resumido en el último comentario.

Juan dijo...

Bueno, yo creo venerable de verdad la experiencia.Quizas la juventud te haga osado para romper barreras preconcebidas, pero la edad te otroga un valor intrinseco.

Roke... cómo cambian las perspectivas con los momentos vitales.
¿Que vas a pensar cuando tengas 47 años?
No se si leiste el articulo de Peces Barba del Pais (chapeau)

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Sorry for offtopic

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